Cycle of Abuse: The FLDS Raid

If you would, please go over their own records:

Note multiple "wives" who are under-aged. (Texas allows marriage at age 16 with parent's consent--however, the secondary wives are not legally married, and thus it does not apply.)
Example: page four, #23, Louise Jessop, wife, age 16. Husband at top of page: Leroy J. Steed, self, age 46.
These are their own records.

Given that the children gave did identify multiple mothers, and the other information from informants inside of the cult, CPS didn't have much of an option. Leave the children there and risk them vanishing, as has happened before, or remove them all?

Nasty situation, all around.

However.

If the SOBs would keep it in their Fing pants until the girls were 18, *it would be legal.*

Also the case of a daycare center in Minnesota, 3 adults prosecuted, the man spent 17 years in prison. the children also recanted and social workers put words in their mouths. How many times does this have to happen?

Amazingly well written article and it lays out very succinctly the issues that many have with how this entire fiasco was handled.

Do not get me wrong, I have no use for the FLDS. They are little more than a Jim Jones style cult. But that does not give the right to let the government to go into someone else's house without the proper cause.

This the key paragraph for me: "Texas authorities had the Colorado cell phone number of the caller who identified herself as "Sarah." They elected, initially, not to track down the owner of the cell phone and confirm "Sarah's" story. It appears from a media report, this was the opportunity authorities had been hoping for. They seized it without pause." Just disgusting. I never understood why they had to remove the women & children? Wouldn't it have been far better to get the men to stay away until an actual investigation was completed?

I'm glad others are speaking out about the tactics of the Texas Gestapo.

It seems to me that taking the children from their mothers and taking them all out of their normal surroundings was an extreme and unwarranted action.

As a parent, it makes me very upset, as I know that young children separated even a short time from their mothers suffer greatly. How many cried themselves to sleep at night? It was unnecessary.

All this does is perpetuate and strengthen the idea among any/all religious groups that the arms of the government are in active hostile action against them, waiting only for a public 'justification' to strike.

Sure, now it's the FLDS, which is widely reviled, but you can bet dollars to dough nuts that other minority religious groups (and some not so minority) are starting to wonder 'whose next?'

This is going to be *much* more expensive a case on a lot of levels.

It is obvious why they had to remove the women and children rather than the men.

They had no evidence theyh could take into court for action against the men.

However, we have created,or allowed, a climate that permits the most heinous Gestapo style tactics by so-called "Child Welfare Agencies". There are situations of a less sensational nature happening repeatedly all over this country.

In actuality, these children were treated little better than a herd of weanling sheep or cattle.

I hope some of these women, or maybe the ACLU (ha!), sues the state of Texas into absolute bankruptch on the behalf of these children. How are the citizens of Texas reacting to this outrage in their names?

Do you think the raid was done to preclude Romney from being on the Republican ticket? Cheers.

I have no doubt that the Texas authorities botched the investigation. However, that does not mean that no crime has been committed. These girls are forced into sex with older men. That is wrong in any context. Forced "marriage" at 18 is just as wrong. No religious group should be above the law. How is it that these girls are giving birth at young ages and no one investigates the circumstances? I think the Texas authorities let things go too long and then tried a sort of quick fix investigation.

CAUTION! All comments must meet our PC guidelines [censorship] or will remain un-published.

I don't know if this was the best way to handle this situation.

But it is clear on the surface that the FLDS does indeed groom under-age girls for plural marraige.

I don't want to give the state the excuse to go into people's houses or lives without good reason. But letting a situation like this continue is also unacceptable.

So? What do we do. There ARE under-age girls being raped by FLDS members. Are we going to sit around around and let it continue to happen?

It troubles me that the state of Texas proceeded on false information. It troubles me that the case was presented "en masse" instead of individually. It troubles me that the CPS continues to go to the compound to look for more children "without a warrant". It troubles me that the state of Texas goes to such extreme lengths for these particular children when they do nothing to establish who the fathers are for the girls in Texas jr. and high schools who are underage and pregnant. It troubles me how little proof they still have, and yet now insist that these people are a flight risk. Thank goodness the appellate court recognizes that due process was not done. Proof is a very fine thing.

I read yesterday at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90857818&ft=1&f=1001 about large numbers of Muslims in this country who practice polygamy and who the "powers that be" manage to ignore. Add to this the steady trickle of reports of Muslim "honour killings" that are never prosecuted, and thrn you see the FLDS case as part of a pattern of government religous discrimination.

Just to put this incident into perspective, Texas teens lead the nation in having babies and 24% of teen births in Texas were not the girl's first delivery according to the Dallas Morning News (11-5-07). According to the CDC, approximately 1.1 births out of every 1000 live births happened to a girl age 10-14. And according to the New England Journal of Medicine (vol. 354: 1031 to 1038, March 9, 2006), After Texas started enforcing their law requiring parent notification of abortion, there were 14,644 abortions and 65,055 births per year among teens in Texas. And we're worried about how many on the FLDS compound?

I find this slow slip into fascism appalling. Where was the due process in this case? Do we make FLDS our gods as far as our children are concerned?

These were the same tactics used by the NAZIs to brainwash the Hitler youth. It was for the children, you see.

We must however protect our children from abuse and neglect. It is the ethical thing to do.

But to take children from parents without due process, we the people become the criminals and child abusers.

This whole thing is frightening. What ever the government charges each child and mother have an absolute right to be heard individually. This is all about headlines. Frankly it reminds me of WACO, only this time the children are being terrorized instead of killed. The emotional scars will last the rest of their life regardless of outcome.

The machinery of the state is now full tilt in CYA mode, with the leak of damaging photos to bolster their case... except the man in the picture is in prison and could not justify their seizure of these children.

This is an over reach, a travesty and an outrage, regardless of the beliefs of the FLDS, which I find abhorrent, the rights of these people are being crushed by the state. What is the actual evidence in each case? Children seized and taken from their family on little or no evidence at all, who will they come for next?

For any that lack knowledge on this case and those that believe the authorities acted properly, you've evidently not researched what exactly took place prior to and in the beginning of this case.

State Representative Harvey Hilderbran has shown us, through his remarks in the media and various reports documented and available on the state web site, that there were state laws enacted around September of 2005 solely to be used against the FLDS members at the YFZ Ranch. The mindsets of those that passed the laws are on record in how they voted.

Sheriff Doran told the press he has been working on the plan for the raid the past four years, waiting for the opportunity to go blazing through the gates at the ranch, which he did.

The alleged victim, "Sarah", placed a call to the New Bridge Family Shelter on April 29th (more followed), that provided many details one has to consider when summarizing what the action that followed shows us. Those details included:

- She was a 16 YO pregnant mother of a child;

- The father often beat and raped her;

- A recent physical assault had resulted in her being hospitalized;

- This illegal conduct was a recurring problem she feared daily;

- That information informs us there was a life threatening situation on hand;

- There were TWO life's to be concerned about.

A call of this nature must IMMEDIATELY be reported to the authorities, as I am certain it was.

Leslie Brooks Long, the Texas Ranger that wrote the Affidavit for the initial Search and Arrest Warrants, did not interview the shelter worker that took the Sarah calls until ONE DAY before the raid, that would be FOUR DAYS after the call was received.

Allison Palmer, First Assistant District Attorney, has told the press of her involvement from the start when the warrant requests were filled out.

The Arrest Warrant did NOT list any crimes that reflected Physical Assault of a pregnant 16 YO was of concern to the authorities overseeing this operation, the crime reported that should be a LIFE THREATENING concern for any that were obligated to attend to the safety of "Sarah".

Sheriff Doran, and those that assisted him, had meanwhile put together a team of 700+ officers, equipped and staffed with helicopters, an armored personnel carrier, sharp shooters and other officers armed with fully automatic "machine guns".

Through numerous press reports from Ms. Marleigh Meisner, a spokesperson for the Texas Child Protective Services, and testimony by Ms. Angie Voss, their Chief Investigator, it is known that they had assembled together 13 of their workers to accompany Sheriff Doran's raid crews at the ranch. A rather over-staffed crew looking for only one person, "Sarah".

There are records now showing that Sheriff Doran had direct contact, through a phone call, with the subject of the Arrest Warrant, Mr. Dale Barlow, PRIOR to executing the warrants. That Doran was aware of the fact Mr. Barlow was NOT on the ranch and he had the opportunity to confirm Mr. Barlow was in another state through his probation officer.

The entire outline of the Warrants used to raid that ranch centered on "16 YO SARAH", "SEX" and "CHILD", absent any focus on the LIFE THREATENING situation that called for IMMEDIATE action.

This entire "save Sarah" raid took place FIVE DAYS after the 16 YO pregnant mother of a child Sarah had first reported the PHYSICAL ASSAULTS she feared daily.

If the authorities involved will not admit that "Sarah" never existed, then they need to be considering the possibility that the missing "Sarah" could be one of the two victims in a double murder.

I'd give about as much weight to the idea such crimes are a possibility as I would that the massive crew that raided the YFZ Ranch were there to "SAVE SARAH".

JUST FYI, the majority of the information needed to verify what I have commented on is available in the original Affidavits used to obtain the Warrants.

The article by the Andersons is well-written and reasoned. Many of the comments in response also make excellent points. As a practicing Texas attorney, but not involved in the Eldorado case, I would elaborate on a couple of things. The Austin appeals court ruled that with regard to the fraction of the children before that court, the State failed in the "14 day hearing" in San Angelo to present sufficient evidence to allow the removal of the children to continue. None of the children before the court were among the five FLDS children the State alleged were pregnant as minors. The decision could have been different with regard to other FLDS children not part of the appeal. The court also rejected the theory that the children before it belonged to one big family, which would have justified removal because of the five pregnant minors. The decision doesn't concern the legality of the initial taking of the children. I agree, however, that the crackdown on the FLDS probably violated state and federal law beyond the family code sections the court had to consider in the appeal. That's extremely serious, even if not a matter before the court in this particular ruling. However, unless age of consent laws are changed, they should be enforced. That being so, the State had to act once officials responding to the admittedly spurious complaint observed evidence of illegal sexual activity. Finally, if the FLDS group, or members thereof, maintain their "polygamous" practices without violating age of consent laws, and also technically don't violate bigamy laws, I'd be inclined in the interest of religious liberty to grant them the privilege of living that lifestyle.

Thanks to American Thinker readers for such thoughtful comments. There is breaking news on this issue:

Unfortunately it appears that the DFPS's position is more centered on control and dominance than individual child protection. An examination of the blanket protection documents that DFPS is trying to force FLDS mothers to sign can be found attached to their brief. http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/ebriefs/08/08039103.pdf (commencing at page 12.)

Parents are being denied custody of their children unless they sign these protection documents. This is highly effective coercion. As parents become frantic to have babies returned to their arms, they may collapse under the duress and sign. Their signatures will eliminate the need for DFPS to present evidence of what appears to be blind speculation.

These parenting plans in effect turn the lives of the families over to the control of DFPS. The government is literally stepping into the shoes of cult leader Warren Jeff -- if not exceeding his power.

So who are this people that will be able to dominate the lives of these families?
Do these social workers either themselves or within their families -
have any drug or alcohol abuse/use history,?
have any history of physical or sexual abuse?
have any history of teenage pregnancies and/or abortions?
Where did they go to school? What associations, clubs, or organizations are they affiliated with? .......

Should we not examine the new cult as carefully as we are examining the old?

The authors

In Texas the Age of consent is in fact 16, a child then can consent to sexual relations with an older man, but this case is a bit more complex. A person who is in a position of authority over a child cannot use that authority to coerce sexual behavior and it becomes sexual abuse.

Regardless, the state messed up pretty badly, and a situation that could have been legitimately investigated has been lost. WTG Texas CPS.

My comment may not be approved since I'm posting to say that I'm very sorry to see American Thinker join the chorus defending the practice of polygamy involving underage girls. For shame.

Response to Lynn
Any crime against a child is abhorrent. Criminal acts should be prosecuted or the laws become meaningless. I am unable to justify Texas DFPS acts that harm innocents and children for the sins of their fathers.
Eileen McDevitt

@ Lynn - please remember that it is possible to reject polygamy and still deplore the actions of an out of control State agenvy.

Dear Larrey,
Great column!
If there were specific crimes or abuses by FLDS leaders, then absolutely they should be arrested and prosecuted for those specific crimes.

The horrible and frightening precedent is the removal of over 400 children, with the expressed intent of PERMANENTLY removing them from their mothers.
Did the mothers do anything illegal? No, not even a hint of that. Were the children in bad shape? No, in fact the Texas media was full of accounts about how healthy they were. Was there immanent danger? Only from the heavily-armed, gung-ho Federal strike force.

The worst danger here is the involvement of deprogrammers. Professional so-called "anti-cultists" who have latched on to this case, and intend to use the notoriety of the FLDS to promote their own interests. And, despite their lofty rhetoric, to drum up some business.

To be specific: Rick Ross, Kiki Holland and Phillip Berry. Also, ex-Mormon activist Flora Jessup has been all over the media. In my opinion, she is using the FLDS situation as a wedge to attack the mainstream LDS church.

These non-experts goaded Texas authorities into taking drastic action, at tremendous expense, causing unnecessary trauma to many innocent people.

It is pretty clear by some of the posts that the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty is becoming abstract, as the nanny state fascist run rampant. At least, they haven't burned the place down....yet.

"However, that does not mean that no crime has been committed. These girls are forced into sex with older men. That is wrong in any context. Forced "marriage" at 18 is just as wrong. No religious group should be above the law."

Where does one start to argue with such blatant arrogance? Do you have proof the girls were forced to have sex with older men? Where is the proof beyond a reasonable doubt, required for a criminal conviction, which can make that statement a fact? Further, do you have proof that marriage was forced upon those individuals at 18? At 17, a woman can consent to marriage or 16 with the parent's permission. Who is to say they did not consent, you have no proof showing they didn't. Even if it wasn't a "legitimate" marriage with regards to the State, who says they were forced to have sex with those men or enter into any sort of non-official marriage compact? The simple fact is that you have no proof and neither does the State of Texas. That would be like hearing a rumor that there was underage sex in a cookie cutter neighborhood and taking away all the children from that neighborhood just in case.

What you are really saying in the last sentence is that no religious group should do something you think is wrong, whether it is the law or not. You might find what they do distasteful but it is their life and they are free to live it how they please as long as it is voluntary and respect's people's rights. Unless someone's rights were violated, then there is no crime. I'm sure the FLDS thinks of many other people's lifestyles as immoral or corrupt but you don't see them mobilizing the police forces to arrest those with different views from them. What is the difference between sexualizing the youth of America by teaching them that having casual sex is ok, that sex between men is a normal expression of emotion, and having multiple partners at the same time is ok as long as you use a condom, and teaching children that marriage and childrearing within a group of people is ok? The latter two are exactly the same thing, why is a polygamist reviled but a swinger revered? The truth is they are the same thing, you just happen to approve of one or the other more strongly. Logically, as long as either lifestyle is voluntary it is none of your business, but out and let people live their own lives.

Hi again,

Way up top, Susan Harms wrote,

*** Do not get me wrong, I have no use for the FLDS. They are little more than a Jim Jones style cult. ***

Not hardly. Jones barely kept a pretense of being a Christian. No coincidence this San Francisco activist called his group the "People's" Temple.
They went into remote isolation, and cultivated paranoia. You might say, it's cults like that that gave cults a bad name -- and they are very rare.

From what I'm hearing, the FLDS people have been rural folks since Brigham Young asked their ancestors to settle southern Utah. Also, they had no worries about going into town, and paid for their supplies up front.
(While I was visiting St. George, Utah, a local kid once pointed out a "polyg-van" that had just pulled into a store parking lot.)

Mind you, I am not into to sexual promiscuity, and utterly opposed to underage exploitation. If the male leaders used an exalted leadership position to facilitate sex (hardly unique to the FLDS or to churches in general), then those men should be prosecuted!
If nobody will talk, seems the authorities have already obtained DNA evidence.

Note, as the Austin appeals court did, that "under Texas law, it is not sexual assault to have consensual sexual intercourse with a minor spouse to whom one is legally married. Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 22.011(a), (c)(1), (2) (West Supp.2007). Texas law allows minors to marry-as young as age sixteen with parental consent and younger than sixteen if pursuant to court order. Tex. Fam.Code Ann. § 2.101 (West 2006), §§ 2.102-.103 (West Supp.2007). A person may not be legally married to more than one person. Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 25.01 (West Supp.2007)."

Public Schools, & most child molesters

The most dangereous place in America for children is now the place the law forces parents to send their children.
Government operated, filled with Child Molesters.
Not to even mention the UN "peace" keepers raping young girls.
This problem like all the rest is centered in the very places government controls, the real enemy of the citizens.

The big list: Female teachers with students
Most comprehensive account on Internet of women predators on campus
Posted: May 19, 2008

Posted: May 19, 2008
8:46 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

Here is a list of the teacher 'sexpidemic' cases WND has documented where female teachers have been accused, or convicted, of assaulting students:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=39783

Laws broken by Texas CPS
1. The local representative from that district had a law passed to target the FLDS as soon as they moved in. The law banned pregnant girls under 16 from marrying even with parental permission. Notice: It did NOT say anything about non-pregnant girls.

2. The state rep stated that this law was passed so that the moment they had a complaint they could take all the children.

3. The CPS set up a raid plan three years before they had a complaint. In fact, both the CPS and the state rep stated that they were suprised they didn't get one.

4. When a call came in, no one bothered to check to see if it was authentic nor did they try to investigate the complaint. They immediately put their plan into action and raided the place, apparently without even a search warrant.

5. The day of the raid the CPS announced that all children would be adopted out.

6. Some mothers were taken with the children but many weren't. No charges were filed against anyone. The CPS tore children from their mothers without concern for child injuries.

7. About a week later the CPS went to a judge and gained custody of all children.

8. When some of the mothers provided birth certificates and drivers' license showing they were adult, the CPS refused to accept them.

9. All parents and children were ordered to take DNA tests by CPS without court order. The parents were told if they did not, they would never get their children back.

10. Volunteer lawyers were appointed to represent the children as per the law. However, the lawyers were not allowed to see or, in many limited to 2,000 characters. For longer comments, we invite you to createcases, to speak with child they represented. The CPS ignored all calls from the lawyers.

11. The children were moved to various homes around the state. Some nursing mothers were allowed to accompany their babies. The lawyers for the children were denied a chance to go before the judge and had to watch all procedings by television.

12. The CPS refused to tell the lawyers where the chldren were that they were supposed to represent and refused to answer any calls from the lawyers.

13. A number of children ended up in the hospital due to CPS mishandling. One 2-year-old was left strapped in a stroller, in the sun, for several hours without anyone present and ended up in the hospital for sun stroke.

14. No provided at any time to anyone other than vcharges were ever stated or any evidence of abuse erbal comments by CPS that the children had been abused.

15. Adult mothers were questioned without lawyers present and were warned to answer all questions or they would never see their children again. Several women stated that they were minors to be allowed to stay with their children.

16. The CPS constantly were going to the media to state their case but they objected when the FLDS did the same thing. They tried to get a court order forbidding the CPS or any of the lawyers from speaking to the press.

17. Two women had babies. Both were adult but the babies were immediately taken by the CPS as "threatened".

18. When the courts began to try individual cases, the CPS would state their reasons to keep the children but the lawyers for the children weren't allowed to ask questions or make statements.

19. The CPS went to the FLDS again without a warrant to search it for more children. They were denied entry without a warrant and then couldn't get the warrant from any judge. They stated that they were there to take any further children they found, even if those children had come with their family to visit or aid after the first visit.

20. When the appeals court ruled that the CPS had exceeded their authority and had to give the children back, the CPS refused and appealed. They finally did agree to give children back to a couple of families but less than a quarter of the children were to go back.

LAWS BROKEN:

Entering without a search warrant or proof of abuse.
Taking all children without proof against any one person.
Seizing and holding adults against their will.
Questioning adults without stating charges and without allowing a lawyer to be present.
Refusing to tell lawyers for the defense of any evidence of criminal acts.
Refusing to allow lawyers to defend their clients in court.

I in no way uphold the lifestyle of FDLS, BUT stompping on their Constitutional Right is WRONG! Who will be next, If the Gov't Thinks your lifestyle is Weird maybe they will take your children away with the use of Tanks? There needs to be a Federal Investigation on the States Abuse of Power and Infringement on these Peoples Rights!

It should be a crime for underage girls to reproduce. I wonder if the government is going to raid every housing project in America, next. If these people were living off welfare, killing one another, dealing drugs, etc...they wouldn't be in the news at all.

Female Government teachers are molesting children every day in Government Schools--so when will the children be removed from these perverted doctrination centers?

So the moral of the story is, the next time a political supporter (Rozita Swinton being an Obama delegate) of a Dem candidate wants to take the heat off their candidate just call in a false report. When you call in the false report, make sure you pick a group that is commonly vilified and prey upon the public's most emotional of views (child abuse) which they would allow authorities to act in the most unconstitutional way without opposition.

Aside from the unconscienable behavior of political activists to support their candidates, this latest abuse of legal power underlines the long standing problems with the Family Law system. Virtually all Constitutional guarantees are set aside in the name of protecting children with the upshot being children become the primary victims of the government's ham handed actions and rarely deal with the real offenders. The Family Law system notoriously uses stereotypes to make judgments and uses the welfare of children to cover up their bigotry and incompetence using emotionalism. The FDLS sect has experienced basically what males have had to endure for the last 50 years in the so called Family Law system.

My problem is this if a "religious group" was not identified with a 16 or 15 year old having a baby what would be the governments response? Government benefits and support. Tell us, anyone, when was the last time the government swooped into a neighborhood and took all the children based upon ONE teenager having a baby? So they claim 5 or 6 teenagers had a baby out of wedlock? Really? What neighborhood doesn't? I tell you what, CPS should sweep into government housing take all the children and accuse the mothers of child abuse for having them out of wedlock. What would be the response of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? What would be the response of liberals in general?

If this had been a gated community of wealthy people, it would never have happened

Everyone within the DFPS should be jailed! Government accountability must/should be law. What Rights do we have?

Regardless of the initial reason to raid the FLDS "baby farm" Polygamy is illegal and hurtful to the women and children. Old geezers having their choice of breeders. Disgusting!

And, it would appear that the few crimes identified have been created by recent laws.

My grandmother, a Baptist from eastern Kentucky had her first kid at age 14 - legally, then, anyway.

Deavis,

"The truth is they are the same thing, you just happen to approve of one or the other more strongly. Logically, as long as either lifestyle is voluntary it is none of your business, but out and let people live their own lives."

First, I never said I approve of swingers. But if it is consenting adults, I am not going to expect the law to be involved.

Second, we know from past history and from the FLDS's own admission, that is what they are doing. Their leader was jailed for forcing young girls into marriage. People who have come out of the cult have borne witness to this activity.

If a girl is 16 and her parents are telling her she must marry some 40+ year old man, how is it not coerced? It is not as if any of these women or girls have any other options. They have no skills and no other place to go. If this is not coercion, what is? True consent is freely given, not ordered by your pastor, parents or anyone else.

I will say again, the authorities botched the whole thing, but it should never have been let go to this extent in the first place.

And the argument that lots of teens get pregnant these days does not change the fact that coercion has taken place. And a whole lot of those pregnant teens in other contexts are victims of statutory rape as well. But we tend to think older men taking advantage of young girls is normal in our society.

This situation sets a dangerous precedent which is why it must be thoroughly investigated and denounced. If CPS can get a warrant and remove children from their homes and then require parents to provide the evidence against themselves to establish that a crime has taken place; if they can show up at a hospital and take custody of a newborn baby because they think the mother is a minor, when will they start requiring that doctors and nurses call them every time an underage mother has a child, show up at the hospital before she leaves, make her name the father, force him to provide DNA, and then send him to prison, and take her baby away because she let herself get pregnant? As I said earlier, that's 80,000 a year in Texas.

I thought this sounded pretty fishy from the start. It was said they had the FDLS under a four year investigation with an inside snitch but all they relied on was one nutty phone call to invade. I would have thought they'd have evidence against specific people with specific instances rather than rounding up all the children. Did they allow this terrible rampant abuse go on for 4 years?
If they wanted to raid a community they might have started say somewhere like Chicago. I have trouble determining what the difference is between a horny 50 year old impregnating a 13 year old and a horny 15 year old doing the same except in this case the 50 year old is caring for the mother and child. whereas the 15 year old impregnates as many as he can with impunity. Meanwhile the girls are disposing of their newborns in the local dumpster or flushing them down the toilet.
They say they are pressured to marry and have children unlike the local gangs which pressure them to have sex with all just for the fun of it.
They say they are brainwashed -- unlike our local government schools.
They have been deprived. Deprived of their elementary school banana-condom education, of tattoos, and of piercing their nipples and c$&#s.
Just a short list of questions:

How many are addicted to drugs?
How many crack babies did they find?
Some have smallpox. How many have STD's?
How many 8-12 year olds are roaming the streets at night committing crimes?
How many have been shot by drive-by shootings?
How many schools have been shot up?
How many are starving and living in pig sty's?

They say they are brainwashed into believing the outside world is a dangerous place. Well Duh!!
Once again our government has managed to fulfill the prophecy of a wacky preacher.

Christine,

Again, you cannot point out a specific crime in this situation. Coercion is not a crime, if it were advertising would be illegal. Again, you are making a moral judgment, rather than a logical one. This is just like when we hide alcohol ads from children during primetime but don't cover up ads for Valtrax during the same time frame. Alcohol is bad but unprotected sex with multiple partners (one of the top ways to catch herpes) is indirectly considered okay by showing a commercial for that product. That is one interpretation, I realize that, but regardless, it is influencing or coercing your thinking.

Notice that when the FLDS leader FORCED a girl into marriage he was jailed. That is exactly my point; he violated her rights by forcing her into a marriage she did not want. He should be jailed, but coercion and force are not the same thing. You could look at coercion in another setting. You say the parents raise a young girl to believe that she must marry an older man, so they "coerce" her in a way that you believe is negative. How is that any different than a single mother with children from multiple fathers raising her daughter to believe she doesn't need a man and marriage is stupid? Is that single mother not doing the same thing as the FLDS? She is setting up her child to have multiple partners and have children with them outside of a contractual (spiritual or state sponsored) relationship. Now we have a 14 year old girl engaged in sex with 15 year old boys (not a crime) having children.

This is EXACTLY the inverse of the FLDS. FLDS is men having children with multiple voluntary "wives" (without the consent of the State, but that is another issue) and society's new norm is a single mother having children with multiple voluntary "husbands for a night or two". At least with the FLDS you have a family unit and some sort of commitment to the children, which is often lacking in the latter situation. In every case, parents guide their children and put them on a path through rearing, which could be called "coercion" by those who disagree with the message. Don't make the mistake of letting your morals judge the course those parents set because one day someone will think your child-rearing is coercing people into a bad situation. Do Christians not coerce their children into a religion that the child might not want to be a part of? When parents tell children they WILL go to church and they WILL go to bible school, is that coercion or a violation of those children's rights? Bible school inhibits their growth and development into productive single mothers and deadbeat dads that we think are normal, so throw them in jail!

Now as far as young girls not having anywhere to go and being "forced" or "coerced" into that lifestyle by circumstances, that is bologna. That is the refuge of apologists who want to take the blame from the shoulders of the class they seek to protect. A human being is capable of leaving a voluntary situation at any time; they simple make up their mind and walk away. If that were not the case you would not have former FLDS members, which you do. If a girl disagrees and someone physically tries to force her to stay, which is a crime, she can call the police or defend herself as the law allows. The fact that they have no skills or means to make a living is beside the point, nobody says you have to be able to support yourself financially when you voluntarily leave a situation. It may not be easy, but that is life.

That is the same pile of stink people shovel when a factory closes down or someone is laid off. The people had no choice, they had nowhere to go, and they had no new skills, the company did them wrong! If I choose to leave my job or am laid off and I can't pay my house note, whose fault is that? Is it my former employers? Of course not, I chose to take on those fiscal pledges and they aren't responsible for my choices. If the girls want to leave and will be broke until they find help or get a job, that is their choice. As long as it is voluntary, it is none of your business. If you want to help them, create an organization and offer them an alternative. Woo them away just as anti-abortion groups do to young women who plan to have an abortion. They "coerce" through incentives and education to get those women to not have an abortion. You seem to be assuming that those girls are drones and have no sense of self-awareness or are incapable of making a life on their own. No it won't be easy, but if they choose to walk out on the life they have, then they accept the consequences. It is a value judgment and it is never going to be 100% beneficial, no choice ever is if it involves two parties who both want something from each other.

Lastly, the idea that many young women are victims of statutory rape is a logical fallacy in many situations. Rape is a physical act of sex forced upon a victim by a perpetrator with violence or the threat of violence. There are no victims in a voluntary relationship, which is the case of a 16year old and 18 year old. To act any differently is ridiculou. A human being controls their body and while they may regret their choices later or make choices based on bad information it cannot be rape unless it was physically forced upon the victim. Statutory rape is a crime based not on violation of rights but rather on a moral judgment of a voluntary act. Just because people think it is a bad decision doesn't mean it should be illegal. At some point you have to accept that human beings are capable of making their own choices. How can we say a 16 year old is mature enough to pilot an automobile (one of the top killers in our country) but not make a decision if they want to have sex with someone 2 years older than them? From a logical standpoint, does it make a difference if the person they have sex with is 1 years younger, 1 1 year older, which is completely legal, but 10 years older and it is rape? While there is a logical limit to the lower end based on human development, in other words the inability to think in a way we would consider adult-like, I would hardly say it is 16 when we are encouraging or "coercing" sex within the age group through education, culture, and media influence. If you could prove in trial that the girl was incapable of making that choice through facts, I'm with you, but when you take her to court and she says, "I love him and wanted to do that," it is hardly rape, it is a moral crusade against her or his decision.

My major objection to the Texas DFPS is that they took vague accusations as an excuse to make mass siezures. The precedent that sets is frightening, and if allowed to stand will permit the following to occur: A man living three houses down from you is accused of molesting his daughter. DFPS agents promptly enter the neighborhood and take every child on the block into "protective custody".

That scenario isn't far fetched, as it is essentially what actually happened to the FLDS families in question.

Texas law itself states that the only justification for siezure of a child is imminent danger to that child. In this case, children were siezed even when officials had no evidence that they were in any danger at all. Guilt by association is NOT a legal principle that can be used by Texas authorities to violate Constitutional rights and abuse families and children.

I think that the entire DFPS leadership needs to be charged with multiple counts of criminal charges (kidnapping, sexual assault for the "gynecological examinations", false arrest, and possibly even assault). The ONLY way to keep things like this from happening is to hold them responsible for their actions and severely punish those who thought this was okay.

Oh, the message in this case is perfectly clear -- if you have children and a family, government is the enemy.

Please note, despite all the things that the TX government has done wrong, not one member of any government agency has, or will be, punished in any manner.

In addition, after the court explained that the government "erred," not one child has been released, not one family has been reunited. In other words, the state continues to hold people against their will despite not only zero convictions of any crimes, but not even one shred of any evidence of any crime having been committed.

If you have a family and members of "child protective services" so much as look as you, you have much to fear. You then have few choices -- surrender your child (and fight in "courts"); flee, run and hide (I suggest out of state); or defend the unjust use of force and die.

Under what has undoubtedly been tremendous political pressure, the Texas Supreme Court has served to restore faith in the system. Please see this link:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080529/D90VHUM00.html

Only two groups of people have benefited from this fiasco. First is the lawyers. I don't usually applaud lawyers, but without them the state of Texas would have run roughshod over the rights of the FLDS. Second, the authors of the best-selling anti-Mormon and anti-polygamy books. I believe they bear some moral responsibility for the mob mentality that enabled CPS to persecute the FLDS. Many in public accepted these authors' descriptions as established fact and in their minds and hearts convicted the entire FLDS community of gross crimes and felt "due process" was a waste of time.

It's downright scary that a government agency in 2008 so brazenly persecuted a minority community on the basis of their beliefs.

If anyone is interesting in history, this is a perfect example of the birth of communism and the infringing Gestapo tactics. This is how it begins. IF, we as a nation, do not rise up and demand that every person that was involved in this illegal seizure be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, then we are opening the door to more of the same. Who gave these people the authority to administer the law? We did. This is the United States of America. We vote for our leaders in this country as OUR representatives. We are consciously allowing the gov't to take away our civil liberties if we are not outraged by this. We will have to look back at this very incident one day and wish we had insisted on real justice. If the state of Texas can STALL a federal appellate court order to give the children back just to 'save face' then our condition is already very serious and very scary.

My heart breaks for these precious little ones who have illegally been abducted from their parents and homes by out-of-control and hostile government officials. And especially the children who have been violated by genital examinations and probing questions. It is reported that nearly half of the children taken were 5 yrs and younger. Who will pay for the psychological counseling to help undo the life long damage? The very 'experts' that are coercing them to confess things that are not true?? Oh, God. Help us as a nation!

All this based on an admittedly uninvestigated phone call made by a paranoid schizophrenic woman. AND the 'law' plotting for years for any excuse to attack a community that dresses and believes differently. Please understand, those who have truly forced a child OR any person of any age to have sex against their will should be prosecuted as a rapist. But if there was a former child molester found living in my apartment building, I wouldn't imagine that all of the children in the entire complex would be taken from their parents because of the 'imminent' danger to all of them. Please!

Please also understand that I am not spouting my concern from reading the media alone. I work in the former Soviet, communist nations in Eastern Europe trying to help people rebuild their lives and regain their human rights and human dignity. If you've never been there, then you cannot imagine. I am speaking out as a warning to all Americans. Do not allow the corruption of government to rule your lives.

The behavior of this judge and the CPS involved affects every citizen of every state of this United States of America. Accordingly, we are ALL responsible to see that REAL justice is done and to make sure that NO ONE is above the law.

If you have never taken a stand for your civil liberties, please do it now!

Deavis,

First of all advertisement is never coercion. You can always just ignore an ad or change the channel. So that argument is bogus.

Second, we have laws on the books to protect young people from even their own decisions, not to mention the decisions of their parents. I must get my kids vaccinated. I must take them to the doctor for a certain number of checkups and so on. And if I tell my daughter that she must have sex with this nice man I brought home I will go to jail. And that is the way it should be. Even if she says, "Well, I wanted to do it because my mom said so."

Most of these FLDS girls are not legally married to the older "husbands."

And if it is always so easy for these girls to get out their "marriages," why didn't the 14 year old girl in the Warren Jeffs case leave instead of going through with her "marriage?" Why did it take 5 years for her to get out and then only because they kicked her out for being "unfaithful." They have no contact with the outside world, no way of even knowing they could "just call the police."

These girls are not told of their legal rights or even that sex makes babies. Yet you say they are able to give consent. You cannot truly give consent to something you don't even understand.

It makes me wonder if you are one of those that thinks that there is no such thing as rape within a marriage.

You are thinking of the civil liberties of the older men that want to have a lot of wives. I am thinking of the civil liberties of those young women. They should have the right to say no and they should be well informed of that right.

FLDS Members, you need to unite as quickly as possible, vote in your own mayor, town council, sheriff, police force, and take over the entire town.

Raise taxes on the people who slandered you to rates which are absolutely sky high and then claim eminent domain, which is totaly legal and then seize all the town peoples property.

Once you have done that, you can force your way into the State house with your own representative. Beat them at their own game. File for matching federal funds and sue the hell out of the State.

Declare your own highways, parks, reserves, airspace, mineral rights and rename the entire town and county. Screw them royal.

You have the power of the vote and have the majority of the population in the County.

God Bless you.

I understand everyones outrage at the way the FLDS situation was handled but just remember it is against the law not to reveal or turn over documents requested by the government in an investigation.
This was happening in the compound. Also even if polygamy was not being used then on the other side the government was also going after bygamy which is being practiced and was proved. The court did take this away from the investigation by throwing out the cases and now in most part there is double jeopardy associated with these cases.
I understand that people get outraged by CPS but remember they are the only true line of defense to stop child abuse in this state. There needs to be an adjusting of there policies but it was reported on the radio that because of this and the outspoken outrage that they may suspend actions of the state CPS program until further notice to address these issues. This may in turn put other children at risk because there is now no agency to help them.
We just need to realize that yes this was a tragedy but we need to consider with what little the CPS has and had to work with in this case in the way of paperwaork and ccoperation.

These people are not normal!